The Joyful Path of Repair, with Hilary Giovale
In this conversation with writer and reparationist Hilary Giovale, we discuss the beautiful journey she went on to write her latest book, Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers toward Truth, Healing, and Repair. We talk about what it means to be a good relative in these times and the repair that's possible when we face the truth about our collective histories.
Hilary Giovale is the author of Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers Toward Truth, Healing, and Repair. She is a mother, writer, and community organizer. A ninth-generation American settler, she is descended from Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, and Indigenous peoples of Ancient Europe. As an active reparationist, her work is guided by intuition, love, and relationships.
To connect with Hilary, visit:
https://www.goodrelative.com/ or https://www.instagram.com/hilarygiovaleauthor/
To access her Guide to Making a Personal Reparations Plan, visit: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1G-ufl_8ixdquMGrDziiBUBAANYKXrN7eHtjiE5aKTfw/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.1kvofvfw6wns
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Welcome to A Wild New Work, a podcast about how to divest from capitalism and the norms of modern work, and step into the soulful calling of these times we live in, which includes the call to rekindle our relationship with the earth. I'm Megan Leatherman, a mother to two small kids, writer, amateur ecologist and vocational guide. I live in the Pacific Northwest and I'm your host today.
Well, hi friend and welcome. Thank you for being here today. I am really delighted to be in this space with you. We are here in Gemini season, in the third kind of section of the spring that I work with, and this is kind of the. Long, slow, no rush, flowers everywhere. The pollinators are buzzing. [00:01:00] This is the bridge into summer. And it's often a really beautiful time on the land, and that can look different depending on where you live. But it's a time when we really see the pollinators shine and we see the benefits or the fruits, the flowers, the blossoms that have come as a result of their attention and their journeys and their cross pollination and their exchange.
So if this is a time of a lot of activity on the land, when there's a lot happening, a lot blooming a lot of sense, and colors and shapes, if there's a lot of activity, what do you most want to tune into and how do you know? What you feel drawn to tune into and what is a no for you? What conversations do you want to be a part of and with whom [00:02:00] in this very noisy world and noisy in a way that's not necessarily or often life giving the way the noise of the pollinators or the insects is in a very noisy world.
Making the choice of what to tune into is a responsibility that each of us carries and we have to make choices. You know, will we let celebrity culture or academia or the demanding day to day will we let those kinds of things take all of our attention? Will we let the sort of surface level mundane take all of our attention?
Or will we also train our ear to listen for something deeper? What is the deep exchange that needs to take place or is taking place in your life right now? What is that [00:03:00] source of truth and wisdom and courage that you can come back to again and again, like visiting a well? The attention economy will take.
Everything we have, all of our neural pathways and powers and attention will take all of it if we let it. So we have to make choices about where we will place our attention and what conversations we will be a part of or not be a part of. And one of the deeper conversations that is happening, and that invites us in to listen is the conversation about how the so-called United States came to be and how we grapple with the legacy of genocide that lives on with us today here in this place, and that we see still living on in other places around the world, like in Gaza.
And I was fortunate enough to tune into some of [00:04:00] this conversation through Hilary Giovale's book, Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers toward Truth, Healing, and Repair, and I was really glad to get to have a conversation with her for this show. Hilary is a mother writer and community organizer, a ninth generation American settler.
She is descended from Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, and indigenous peoples of ancient Europe as an active reparation. Her work is guided by intuition, love, and relationships, and some of the things that Hilary and I covered in this episode are her. Quite synchronistic and divinely guided journey into writing this book.
Her perspective on what whiteness obscures from our view and how her work toward repair has changed her relationship to the land that she lives on and the indigenous peoples who live there. I really hope that Hilary's story and [00:05:00] perspectives helps us to widen our perspective of. Who makes up our village, what histories make up this village now, and I hope that hearing from her encourages you to do the repair work needed in your life, in your corner of the world in order for all of us to create healthier.
More resilient and diverse villages so that we can all live and so that the earth can live. It's really big work, but it's also so tiny and relational and moment by moment, and I think you'll find that Hilary's perspectives. Are both inviting and holding those of us who identify as white or have European ancestry to a higher standard that actually feels really aligned and has a lot of integrity.
So I hope you love this conversation. My only announcement today is just a big thank you [00:06:00] to sustainer members and others who have pitched in once or monthly to help make this show possible for me to offer. If you have the means that would like to, I welcome your financial support and you can learn more about that at buy me a coffee.com/megan leatherman.
And with that, I'll guide us into our opening invocation. So wherever you are, you might just find a sweet, soft part in your heart or in your body. Feeling yourself just kind of land in your body today, and even if you're moving or still wherever you are, seeing if you can even feel yourself being held by the earth.
You are not flying off into outer space or falling down [00:07:00] into the core of the earth, you're held right where you need to be.
May each of us be blessed and emboldened to do the work we're meant to do on this planet. May our work honor our ancestors known and unknown. And may it be in harmony with all creatures that we share this earth with. I express gratitude for all of the technologies and gifts that have made this possible, and I'm grateful to the molten Noma Cowlitz spans of Chinook and Clackamas tribes among many others who are the original stewards of the land that I'm on.
Alright, well Hilary, thank you so much for being here today.
Hilary Giovale: Thank you so much, Megan. I'm so excited to talk to you.
Megan Leatherman: Well, I think your book is astounding. It's like, I feel like I'm almost in an interview with the hundreds of people that you went through this with. Like it's really a testament [00:08:00] to weaving and going slow enough that you can, you know, bring together just a pretty incredible tapestry of your personal story and also just all of the wisdom you've received through this, I think eight years of writing it. So I was hoping we could start to hear a little bit from you about the inception of this book, how it began, and the journey that it took you on until now.
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Oh, I would love to share about that. Um, you know, I feel like. There were many entry points that all kind of wove together. It's a very non-linear book and a non-linear process that has led to it. But, um, one of the entry points was that on the last night of 2015, I. Received a book of family genealogy that had been written by my great uncle and he, he and his wife had done a ton of research and put this [00:09:00] book together just for the family in the nineties and in late 2015, it came into my hands for the first time and I opened the book and realized that I had an ancestor who had immigrated to this continent from the Scottish Highlands in 1739.
His grandson received a plantation in the will of a family friend, as well as one enslaved person who was in that will and then went down to, um. Mississippi where he received a grant of stolen Choctaw land and he and his descendants enslaved people on that piece of land for several generations. And so that was one of the entry points to this.
Um, another entry point was a few months later, I had been going through just the most. Unbelievable grief and [00:10:00] devastation. Personally devastated by this news because it had been kept from me my whole life and I was 40 at that time. And, um. Another. So the, the second kind of entry point that comes to my mind is that I was receiving a divination from an African Am American elder named Yay T Yay Louis T.
And she started telling me that my ancestors were whispering in her ear about a book I had written. And I had a hunch that this. Family Secret was what the book was going to be about, but I was completely terrified to write it and had every excuse in the book and every level of resistance you can imagine.
And t um, encouraged me. She listened to me and then she said, you know, your ancestors are asking you to get out of the way and write [00:11:00] this book. It needs to be written. And, and she gave me a writing prompt and a deadline, and she helped me get started. So those were two of the entry points, but there were other ones as well.
So I'll, but I'll start with those two.
Megan Leatherman: Hmm. Beautiful. Thank you. And maybe could you tell us a little bit about, um. I guess, how would you describe the journey that this took you on? Are there some big words that would help us understand kind of what evolved in the writing of it and getting out of the way for it to be written?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Um. You know, I, I was thinking about this when I listened to your, um, episode earlier today. That was the introduction to this conversation about aging. And, um, you know, it made me think about what, what had to happen in myself in order for this journey to [00:12:00] take place. And one of the things that had to happen was that, um.
I had to muster up the courage over years of writing to speak very openly and personally about the things that are completely taboo in white settler culture. We are not supposed to talk about we past. We aren't supposed to talk about our own whiteness. We aren't supposed to talk about white supremacy.
We aren't supposed to talk about capitalism and how it's destroying all of us. We aren't supposed to talk about the redistribution of wealth or the return of land. We aren't supposed to talk about race, et cetera. And it go, the list goes on and on. And so when I, when I look at the arc that this took me on, it was a process of shedding many layers of conditioning.
That had taught me my entire life to conform to those ideals [00:13:00] and those rules, those unspoken rules. And, um, I was terrified throughout the process. I was, every time I would think about, you know, this book being in people's hands, I would, I would have to like fight back a panic attack that went on for a long time because, um, the conditioning was so deep for me.
To uphold this, this culture of silence and secrecy and denial. And so it was a process of shedding and healing and opening and stepping into what was almost unspeakable and unthinkable for me at the beginning.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: And I had to do that over and over.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Mm. Thank you for naming that and the fact that it.
Something you had to continuously contend with, and it wasn't like you became brave one day and that it was just uncomfortable the entire time. And that didn't mean you were off [00:14:00] course, right? Right, exactly. Oh, thank you. Yeah. One of the most exciting things to me about your book is what you mentioned earlier, that your ancestors who were from Europe, it sounds like.
Were conspiring and supporting and opening this way for you to come into repair and healing with people of different ancestry, and I don't know why I'd never thought of that before, but just hearing all of the tangible ways that your ancestors influenced you and opened things and and supported you in that.
I think it just feels like this work is part of a much larger. Endeavor or story, and I'm not, I feel like I'm not putting it well, but it, there's something pretty profound about the idea that my ancestors from [00:15:00] Europe really care that this get, that these things become repaired and healed. Um, I think maybe what it is, is there's this like thread of, um, this return of like.
White Europeans to like our maybe, um, ancestral ways that can become like nationalism and fascism, you know, where like, I'm gonna embrace my heritage and I am, you know, indigenous in this way and it makes, it can be this like separative divisive thing. And I just really appreciated hearing that maybe my ancestors who lived that way are willing to help and excited to help.
A different kind of repair. Um, so maybe you could share a little bit more about that for people who haven't read your book yet. Like how did your ancestors guide you in this process?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, that's a great question. Um, [00:16:00] I felt very distinctly that they were asking me to do this. And why? Why were they asking me on that side of the family with the history I just mentioned?
I'm the ninth generation of settlers, and so why, why me? Right? And I really, when I look back on it now, I think that happened because it has taken nine generations. To sort through all of the baggage and the trauma and the, um, separation that they brought over here with them. They were forced off their land too.
They were forced into boarding schools too. They had their language disparaged, their culture, you know, um, critiqued. And they were called barbarians and [00:17:00] they were called uncivilized too. And so I, my sense is that there was a lot of pain that came over here with these folks. And yes, they were escaping horrible conditions and then they.
Perpetrated those very similar and in some cases the exact same conditions over here. And so, um, you know, I really believe that they, they are, they are calling, many of us at this time, these ancestors are calling many of us forward and saying, now is the time for us to come together and look at what has happened and.
Not only for me to see them as perpetrators, but for me to see them as very complex human beings that have legacies that are still ongoing. And so, um, I'm, I'm [00:18:00] in touch. You know, your, your series right now is about aging and my village is made up of people who are in this kind of work, this kind of process where we are reckoning with the past.
We are doing it with the assistance of our ancestors, who in some cases, you know, took part in the creation of white supremacy over here with, with the belief and the feeling that in order for them to be whole and complete on the other side, they need us to do this work now. Mm-hmm. In, in an embodied material way.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I do think the connections between this world and the other world are fluid and that absolutely what we do here has echoes and effects both ways.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I have really come to feel that, and that that is also a teaching that I received early on. [00:19:00] From a tewa elder named Kathy Sanchez, who works with Tewa Women United, she, she shared a teaching with me that she calls Trauma Rocks.
And what I took away from that teaching was that, um, trauma is passed through generations until someone in one of the generations finally has the stability and the capacity to speak out about it. And then when that person does that work, the healing gets carried. Backwards seven generations and forward seven generations.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: So that's my, my hope is that I can, I can be that, that generation that is where the tide turns in the middle and, and that things will start to change in the future generations moving forward.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. The subtitle of your book is calling White Settlers toward Truth, healing, and Repair. So what could you [00:20:00] give us some maybe more specific insight to what those words mean or what that looks like if we are someone in our lineage who has that stability and capacity, even if we're not sure we do what?
What are you calling us into in this book or in this larger work?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Well, I. I am calling when I say truth, what I mean is that, um, you know, all around us, we are part of a dominant culture that is much more invested in lies and, um, a whitewashed version of history. Than anything else. And I feel like in the current political climate that we're seeing, that's just glaringly obvious.
You know, it is more about erasure than it is about truth. And so I'm, that's, that's the first thing I'm calling us into seeing things. [00:21:00] Are true seeing histories that are true, seeing the truth about how these things have impacted not only us, but also the communities of this land, the African American communities, the indigenous communities, the immigrant communities.
What is the truth of how this entire colonial project has landed on all of us? So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is healing. And this is a journey of healing. It's not about just making some, some of us right and others of us wrong. It's not about oversimplifying things. It's about leaning into the reality that we are all complex human beings who have been wounded by this situation in different ways.
It is landed on all of us differently. It impacts us very differently depending on class and where we live and our positionality. And yet it, it does impact us [00:22:00] all. And so we all need healing from this colonial past and present that we're living in right now. And then, um, repair for me is about, this for me gets to your inquiry in, in the season that you're doing about aging because, uh, repair is about learning how to belong.
It is about stepping into the power that each one of us have to take steps toward reducing the harm that has happened and continues to happen, and moving into a process of repair. In my understanding and in my experience, is the only way that we will ever really find to belong here on this land. And so that's, that's how I am creating my village is through the [00:23:00] process of those three things, truth, healing, and repair.
Um, and, and it is a beautiful village and it's incredibly rewarding. And everybody has access to a village like that. I believe. I believe that we can all find a, a way into this, um, this kind of work.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. What would you say would be maybe some entry points, like you mentioned there were some entry points for you that brought you into this book and this larger work.
Are there common entry points that you see, you know, work or, um, repeat themselves for people who are ready to do more of this work?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, there's one common entry point is, um, the land. Building a relationship with the land where we live.
Um, you know, even though so many of us are displaced people, [00:24:00] people whose cultural heritage has been interrupted, um, we are all still earthlings, we're all still children of Mother Earth and.
I really feel that no matter where we are, whether we're on stolen land, which almost all of us are in the United States, um, we can still connect with the land. That's one entry point, and that looks like for me, that looks like sitting by the creek, sitting under the tree, going out to the same rock every day and making an offering and greeting these.
These features of the landscape as beings, as sentient beings who are much older than us, much wiser than us. Remember the stories of this land. Remember so many things that we can't even fathom. And asking [00:25:00] permission to sit with them and listening. That's that's one entry point. It's very simple. But, uh, deceptively simple but profound.
Mm-hmm. And, and that's also been many of the elders who I've learned with over the years have taught me different versions of that. And I've heard many elders say that all people need to learn how to re indigenize ourselves. And that is. As far as I've heard, that's always like the first step is building a relationship with the land that's, that's respectful, that's not extractive or commodifying, you know?
Mm-hmm. And, um, let's see, another, another entry point is, uh, uh, you know, learning about the. The history of the land where you live, who are the original peoples of that land? Are they still there? If not, where are they? What [00:26:00] happened to them? What are some of their stories? What language did they speak or do they speak now?
And then, especially if there are indigenous communities where people live, that is an excellent way to begin. You know, um, showing up very humbly and taking steps toward building relationship. That can be an entryway beginning. If you live in a place that has, um, access or has a, some kind of a land tax program, that can be an entry point.
And if you don't live in a place where indigenous people currently live, because many, there are, there were hundreds of nations here that were pushed off their land and there was a genocide. Committed here as well. Um, you can, you can look to who else is here, who, who else other than the white community.
So is there a black community? Is there an immigrant community? And beginning to show up [00:27:00] and learn. So these are some of like the basic, to me, these are the basic ways to get started.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm so glad you talked about the land because my. Efforts to repair in my own ways have been so much sturdier and deep because it's, it's sort of rooted in loving the same land where the molten Noma peoples were.
So it just gives me a much different, um, connection point instead of, yeah, I don't, it's not like one is better or worse, but I really love that. That was the first entry point you mentioned. Um. I also admire that a lot of this is very slow. None of this is like, sign up for this thing and it's done. And uh, yeah, that just feels very grounded and real.
Like it just takes, I. More time than we might like or be comfortable with. [00:28:00]
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, absolutely. I have to remind myself of that all the time because, you know, urgency is one of the characteristics of white supremacy.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: And I feel urgency all the time. And I ha And then I have to check myself and go, you know what?
It took centuries to get into this situation. There's only so much I can do in my lifetime, and I have to pace myself and trust that these seeds that are being planted right now, not just by me, but by so many of us are going to someday flower, you know? Mm-hmm.
Megan Leatherman: What do you think that might look like? Do you get any whispers or visions of what that could be like?
Hilary Giovale: I, you know, sometimes I just dream of. The children of the future generations like living in a peaceful, [00:29:00] equitable, sharing community-based way that honors the, the water and, and enables the land to be cleaned up and quits, producing plastic and relying on fossil fuels. And where we have. We have really and truly learned the lessons that history has offered up over and over and, and we are, we are coming together as whole and complete human beings, and not just human beings who are.
Um, running around at the, at the mercy of our trauma.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. One of the things I really wanted to ask you about was this, your experience with the Ceremonies for Human Reunion with Pat McCabe, I think.
Could you tell listeners what that was like and what that, how that relates to the pain that European peoples brought here?
And I mean, I just think [00:30:00] that's an incredible example of what's possible in this work. Could you tell listeners about it?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. There, um, this was an incredible. Convening that happened with Pat's vision. And she is a Dine elder. She's a grandmother. And, um, she lives in New Mexico and she and I have been friends for years.
And, um, she began receiving very clear visions and instructions. I believe it was around 2015 also, um, showing that there had been a. An archetypal wounding of humanity. That's what she calls it. And, uh, in Europe relating to the European witch hunts. And so she convened a bunch of indigenous grandmothers from all parts of the world and brought them together in Europe.
They went to, uh, [00:31:00] England, France, Italy, Germany, and Spain. And, uh, in each place they told stories. They gathered, you know, the community was all invited, everyone was freely invited to attend. And they told stories that were like the stories that would be told at initiation ceremonies, womanhood, initiation ceremonies.
And I was present for the ceremonies in France and Italy. I was just there as a guest and, uh, you know, I look back on it now, it happened almost 10 years ago. I look back on it now and I think, oh my gosh. That was just a really formative moment for me that I was able to listen and be sitting on the ground.
We would sit on the ground, you know, out on the land sometimes for four days at a time. [00:32:00] Just listening to these elders and being in on the continent of Europe. And, um, I don't have Italian ancestors that I know of, but I do have French. So, you know, sitting on ancestral lands and listening to those, those old stories of connection and, and knowing deep cultural knowing, and.
I remember, you know, pat saying that these stories are meant to help us align with the vibration of truth so that we can choose a new path going forward so that humanity can choose a new path going forward, not just the individuals who happen to be there and, um. You know, I was, I was, that was early in my process of grappling with the, knowing that I descend from colonizers.
And so it was very tender for me. But I think it, in some ways, those ceremonies gave me the strength to, [00:33:00] um, to keep going and to keep looking at it, to keep persevering through that very difficult material. And also, you know, reconnection with those European ancestors and recognizing the, the treasures they held in their own cultures eventually became a big part of my life too.
Megan Leatherman: Yeah. Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? What are some of the things that you've brought forward that are, you know, part of your heritage that really enrich your experience?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Um. You know, and also I wanna note that I can't take credit for this at all because it was at the, you know, gentle, loving, persistent request of many indigenous friends who told me repeatedly, we hope that you'll go do this.
We hope that you'll go learn your songs. We hope that you'll go back to your lands and [00:34:00] find out where your people came from and what they were about. And it took me many. Of hearing that suggestion to finally get the strength to do it, because there was a huge blockage inside of me. Um, so I wanna, I wanna give credit where it's due, and then also name that, you know, some of the most potent things for me have been learning songs in Gaelic and Irish.
I have learned with Mary McLaughlin, who is an Irish woman, and Sheena McKenna, who is a Canadian of Scottish and Irish descent, and who has made it her life's work to reclaim and give new life to these very old folk songs from the, the Hebert and the Highlands. And, um, in the process of learning those songs, I began.
Very slowly to understand that my ancestors had a sacred relationship with fire [00:35:00] and with the ocean and with the land, and they were in deep relationship with the animals who were part of their, their life ways, the the cattle. And later on the sheep. And, um, they, they worshiped deities who were included a whole huge pantheon of goddesses, not just a male god up in the sky.
And, um, you know, just the richness of what is still known there as just unbelievable. Mm-hmm. Especially drawing on the archetypes like I have really connected with the kayak, who is, um, a primordial crone who created the land of Scotland and Ireland by dropping boulders out of her apron. And Bridget or Bria, who is, you know, a triple goddess of poetry and blacksmithing and healing.
These are very old [00:36:00] deities in Europe, and especially in what is now called the British Isles. And so, um, you know, learning those songs, those stories about those archetypes has really given me strength to, to draw on those deep roots that I have. And the thing is, we all have them. We all, we all come from people who were connected to the land.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I believe you. Yeah. And so what does that mean for you now on the land that you live on? Like how I know that your relationship with that place has changed a lot as you went through this process. And um, could you tell us a little bit about what it means now for you to, you know, have this heritage and now be on land where people were displaced?
And what is your relationship with that place look like now?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it's kind of, I see it as a little bit of [00:37:00] a, a hybrid existence because I will never be indigenous to this place. You know, I live on Hopi, Havasupai Dene, Apache Pueblo land in northern Arizona. I live at the foot of a sacred mountain of kinship who is revered by 13 nations of this region.
And. You know, on one hand I have had experiences with this mountain where I know that she treats me like a grandchild. She, she schools me, she holds me on her lap. She feeds me, and she loves me. I know that. On the other hand, I'm part of a extremely abusive, settler colonial culture. That is extracting and exploiting this landscape.
And so, you know, there's a ski resort on the mountain that is putting reclaimed sewage water [00:38:00] on the slopes of a holy mountain that is like the cathedral for 13 nations. And, um, and so, you know, because, because I feel like I'm a, I'm her grandchild. I'm now honor bound and it's my privilege truly to, to take part in protecting her as well.
So I work with an indigenous led grassroots organization that has been working on the protection of that mountain and trying to get that, that artificial snowmaking stopped for many years now and has also been trying to, to help settlers understand that that mountain isn't even a place for recreation.
You know, it's, it's a place for prayer and a place for reverence and contemplation, but it's, it's not a place to go out and t Trump all over it with our mountain bikes and skis. And so that's a very foreign concept in settler culture. And so, [00:39:00] um, you know, we've got our work cut out for us, but I, I see that as it's a, it's a kind of, um, a double, it's, it's a hybrid existence.
I guess you could just say that. It's both. And it's like, in order to belong here, I have to, um, step up and contribute and, and do what I can, even as someone who has come from such a harmful legacy.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. That kind of makes me wonder, you know, with this political environment we're in right now with Trump and all of the, everything that's happening.
There are people I know who are white, who are looking into leaving and moving, you know, abroad and I'm just curious what your perspective is on that. Um, yeah, just what, what's your perspective about that?
Hilary Giovale: Well, I would love to get out of here 'cause [00:40:00] this is a pretty toxic place right now.
Um, and. Given my family history, I feel like I can't, you know, I need to stay here and be accountable to what has happened and, and do my best to show up for, for this place that has been taken care of my people for nine to 12 generations, you know?
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. I really appreciate that. I feel the same push, pull impulse.
And I also am watching my relationship with this place deepen and deepen and it's own. That's where it feels like the energy is, even as I fantasize about leaving. And, um, so yeah. Thank you for bringing in that balance. Hmm. What? Let me see where I might wanna go next. I. Well, maybe we could just [00:41:00] get into some of like the nitty gritty.
What does your work look like right now? Like what is your, what is in your workday? What are, are you writing another book? Like how does this work look today?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Well, I have been for the last five years co-facilitating circles. And the curriculum that we've built. I work with a good friend of mine named Alicia Holiday and her organization, which is Organization of Nature Evolutionaries.
And, um, we have built out a curriculum over the last five years that kind of follows the arc that my, my own story took in the book. And so, um, we work with people. From October to May usually. Um, and we, we only work with about 16 to 18 people every year because we realize that this is, this is sacred work to, to go [00:42:00] into these very difficult topics together, and it takes a lot of tending.
Kindness and listening and walking beside each other in a really committed way. And so, um, it's definitely not something that we can scale, but, but we, we have been working with people over the last few years who have now started their own circles as well. And, um, and so that's one of the things that I do is just.
Really trying to be a good relative to, you know, other white folks who are sitting with these questions. And um, and then I've also been teaching some classes on philanthropy through Pioneers and the Decolonizing Wealth Project because I am a reparative philanthropist, I was put in this position in this lifetime.[00:43:00]
As a result of capitalism. And so, although I, I strongly feel that capitalism is, needs to go away and massively transform, it's the system that we're, we've got right now. And so, um, I am doing my best to redistribute resources. So that's, so that is what gives, you know, the, gives me the background to teach those kind of classes.
And let's see, what else? Um, I'm not writing right now, uh, but I think I will someday and, um. I'm just, uh, you know, mothering my children and I went through a, a very serious health issue last year. So I'm, I'm healing from that. And, uh, and yeah, just trying to keep my [00:44:00] eyes out and be attentive to what shows up.
That's the big thing because, um, in my village there is. A huge network of people all over the United States and Canada, and in some cases in Australia and Europe too, where, um, this, this topic is like, like the pot is starting to bubble on all of this stuff. And there are lots of conversations that are happening and people finding each other, making connections, and so.
Sometimes I joke that my job description is like, is ancestral switchboard operator, because I connect people and people show up, you know, out of the blue that, that have something in common that need to talk to each other. And so I try to really listen and be attentive to what, what's emerging.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
That sounds like a lovely role. [00:45:00]
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. It's intriguing.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Thank you. So yeah, what does Village mean to you? What does, what does that term evoke for you or look like?
Hilary Giovale: You know, the first thing that popped into my mind when you said that was a dream I had one time and in the dream I was, uh, traversing a pass over the sacred mountain I mentioned with my son.
We walked all night and it was dark and cold, and I was worried that he didn't have a jacket on. And then in the morning, in the sunrise, we walked into a village of our people, of our ancestors, and they were laughing and dancing and making food and having, you know, beverages together. And they were, they were playing and they were all in bright colors and.
They welcomed us in. And so [00:46:00] in the, in my dreams, I, I hold a lot of images like that of what village means to me and how it feels and smells and tastes, you know, so on one hand it's like that, which is a beautiful, every time I think of that dream, it's just, it is such a beautiful vision to summon up and remember the feeling of that village.
Um, and also down here on Earth in the awake time, it, it looks like, uh, it looks like accountability.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: You know, and, um, looks like. Reeducating ourselves about what has happened here because we've all, almost all of us, have been taught a, a version of history that's false and, [00:47:00] and completely romanticized.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: And, um, so it looks like, you know, reeducating ourselves and building relationships and showing up for. Difficult conversations, showing up and finding out how we can be of service and, um, moving into reparations, personal reparations.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. What does it mean to be a good relative? Why? Why did you choose that word and how does it relate to village?
You know, 'cause we won't be related to everyone biologically in our village, but what, what does it mean to you to be a good relative?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah. Um, that term is one that I first heard in indigenous spaces and communities, and that is a, a concept that is held in common throughout many indigenous cultures that the concept that we are [00:48:00] all related, I.
No matter what our skin color or a family of origin or our story, we're all related. And not only are all humans related, but we're also related to the water, to the land, to the fire, to, you know, the winged creatures and the swimming creatures and the crawling creatures, and the four leggeds. And so that, that is where that concept was first introduced to me.
And then I had, um. Some reader, many readers on this book, and one of my very early readers was a black woman who said to me, I wanna propose a title to you, and it's becoming a good relative. So I sat with that for a while, and then later on I had an indigenous woman reader and I checked it out with her and she said, yes, that is the title.
And so, um. You know, it's def that title is definitely borrowed from indigenous cultures and worldviews. [00:49:00] And, and also the reason it, it includes the word becoming is that I'm not, I'm not a, a stamped and sealed good relative. It's an ongoing process, you know, and, um. I think that it has to be, for all of us, we, it's a constant process of learning and trying and making mistakes and trying again and, you know, uh, it's, it's never gonna be done for us.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, thank you. Is there anything that we haven't covered today about becoming a good relative that you feel like is on your heart or important to say today?
Hilary Giovale: Um, I guess one thing I would share is that, um, I wanna share a little bit about personal reparations plans.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm.
Hilary Giovale: And so I'm gonna give you that link to include with the show notes.
There's a Google doc I put together, um, and [00:50:00] this is the doc that we use in some of the classes. And, um, and, you know, it's a, it's a very simple process that anyone can begin. Um, anyone who, you know, has a level of stability in their lives who is not, you know, uh, impoverished and is not living without, without a home or without electricity, those of us who have those basic needs met, we all have the capacity to do this.
And so, um. I wanna, I wanna share that with the listeners and encourage them to go and check it out and begin that process. And it basically is the principle that we all have something to give. We all have an interest, we all have a calling, we all have a talent. Many of us have assets that we can share, you know, whether that's $10 a month to a land tax program or, or more.
I wanna, I wanna let the listeners know about [00:51:00] that and share that resource. And also, um, you know, share that my book is, I for this book to be legit and to walk the talk. I can't take income from book sales and so I have decided to return. All, everything I received from book sales to the Decolonizing Wealth Project and Jubilee Justice, so that if people feel intrigued and interested in that book and they decide to buy it, they are beginning a reparations plan because, because the money will be going back to an indigenous led and a black led organization that is working on these issues.
So I, I would like to put that in as well, just. It's really important for me not to take income from this work because, um, it just feels important for, for the [00:52:00] healing piece of it to come through without being enmeshed with money.
Yeah.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Thank you. Maybe if you're open to it, I'd love to hear your perspective on how you think about.
You know, us having to meet our needs with income versus doing our soulful work and repair. And is it that, that those should always be separate, you know, the, this work of repair and earning an income or I. Yeah, just any thoughts you have about how we're meeting our material needs inside of capitalism while also trying not to just make more of this harm.
Right. What's that been like for you, or what would you say about that?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, that's, that is a really, it's a tough question, and I think it depends a lot on people's circumstances. You know, I, I have been taught not to receive income for spiritual work, you know, [00:53:00] like. Praying for someone or doing a ritual for someone.
I, I was distinctly taught not to receive income for that. I think teaching and writing and things like that are different, you know, and I get it. I mean, we all need to eat and, you know, pay our rent and our mortgages, and so I think that's probably a question that each person needs to examine carefully.
Themselves. And, you know, to be transparent, I, the reason I can do this without receiving income is that I've got another source of income. And so, you know, that I'm afforded that opportunity because I walk around with a lot of privilege and, um, and not everybody has that. And so, you know, I, I respect that and I honor that we're all in different places with it.
Megan Leatherman: Hmm. Thank you so much, Hilary. This has been really rich. Is there anything else that we haven't covered that [00:54:00] you want to mention?
Hilary Giovale: Um, I guess I would just close by saying that this is not a path of guilt and shame. It's a path of joy. What happens, I've seen it over and over through the years when people do the work to make their reparations plans and then start enacting them, is that they're filled with joy and purpose, and that's what we need in the village too, right?
We need sources of joy that are deep and abiding, and not just through the stuff that we can buy online.
Megan Leatherman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well, where can people find you and learn more about this? I'll put the link to the personal reparations plan in the show notes, but just for audio, you know folks, where can they go?
Hilary Giovale: Yeah, I have a website, it's good relative.com, [00:55:00] and I'm also on Instagram at Hilary GI author, and on Facebook just with my name. And so, yeah, I, I love to hear from people and, you know, hear their perspectives on how things are moving for them in this realm. Okay. Great to reach out.
Megan Leatherman: Thank you. Yeah, I'll put all those in the show notes.
Hilary Giovale: Okay.
Megan Leatherman: Alright. Thank you so much, Hilary. This has been really rich.
Hilary Giovale: Thank you to Megan.
Megan Leatherman: Alright my friend. I hope you got a lot out of this conversation with Hilary. I encourage you to check out her book, becoming a Good Relative, and I'll put the link to that in the show notes. Her website also has a lot of really great resources available and that will be in the show notes for you too.
If you found today's episode helpful, if you would like to support the show and help me to make it, I welcome your financial contributions at buy me a coffee.com/megan [00:56:00] leatherman. Again, you can pitch in once or monthly or become a sustainer member and go a little deeper into this work. If that's not available to you, I welcome other forms of support of just sharing the show with your beloveds, making use of it in your own life.
Uh, leaving a review on Apple or subscribing to the show, wherever you feel called is so welcome. I really consider this to be something that we're making together and I welcome your involvement and support and resonance. I will be back with you in two weeks to talk about the transition from spring to summer, from the nature element to the fire element and what that shift might hold for you, what to be looking for and how you might want to work with it, and I'm excited to share those ideas with you as we cross into the summer season.
And I [00:57:00] should say that the summer edition of the Living the Seasons Journal is out and will be shipped starting the week of June 16th, I believe, maybe starting June 13th. Uh, this is a really lovely week by week. Look at the summer season and the fire element and what the land shows us in this time as we move through the three kind of major waves of summer cancer season, Leo season, Virgo season. And so if that sounds supportive to you, you can visit a wild new work.com/shop and you'll see the journals listed there. And you can place a pre-order for the summer journal now, and I welcome that. I hope you take such good care and I will see you on the other [00:58:00] side.