Natural Ways to Unfreeze Fear
Fear isn’t bad or useless, but when it grips us regularly, it can be helpful to learn how to thaw.
In this first episode of the Winter 2025 season of the show, I share an overview of how we can relate to the sensation of feeling frozen and find natural, generative ways to move through it.
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Welcome to A Wild New Work, a podcast about how to divest from capitalism and the norms of modern work and step into the soulful calling of these times we live in, which includes the call to rekindle our relationship with the earth. I'm Megan Leatherman, a mother to two small kids, writer, amateur ecologist, and vocational guide. I live in the Pacific Northwest and I'm your host today.
Hi friend and welcome. Welcome to the winter season, maybe in the land that you live on and also the winter season of this show. I've been away for about a month now and it's so lovely to be back here in this space with you. I've been really grateful for the chance to just rest and do holiday stuff and recover from holiday stuff and have some larger windows of time with lower cortisol levels. And I hope that you've gotten some of that too, or that you're looking forward to getting more of that as we go deeper into the winter season. This season of the show, like last winter season, will be shorter. And every season has had a theme, you know, because that's helpful to sort of organize the ideas around and I just like it but this season has been very hard to pin down and very much like winter itself I think kind of mysterious doesn't want to be named doesn't want to be identified or clarified.
So today I'm going to just take the next straight step and talk about what feels most present which is the element of water and fear and how to know what to do right now. And future episodes for the season are going to include some interviews that I'm really excited to share, as well as an episode on deer, sweet deer friends, and we'll conclude with an episode on the spring equinox and what's important for that particular seasonal shift this year, because everyone is different. So I don't have like a coalesced theme to say, you know, this is what we're going to be learning about this season, but I'm going to just trust that every episode will be what needs to be said and shared. And I'm really grateful that you're here on this journey with me. I know that by the time I publish this episode, the United States will have sworn in a new president. And so it felt appropriate to share some of my beliefs and ideas about fear and how to know what to do with it and how we can fortify ourselves and one another as we step into more of the unknown.
You know, capitalism is really super doing its thing right now, you know, purchasing and coalescing power in destructive ways. And this is not the first time that it has done this. Capitalism has been brutal since its origins in the 1500s to 1800s. And we all have ancestors who lived through its beginnings all across the world. So while this is a context with different flavors and personas and different contours, it is possible that we can navigate this time and maybe even come out better for it, more connected, more humble, stronger in new ways. So I'm not trying to silver lining you because I know that many things about where we are right now are very dire and that a lot of people are hurting and suffering and that things are not clear or that there may not be any getting through this. I know that that's a possibility.
And I know that when we're afraid or when there's fear on our minds, the brain loves to shut down every other possibility and gets very rigid and says, this is how it will be. This worst case scenario, this outcome is how it will be. And I'm not trying to say we should just stay positive and think our way out of it, but it's true that no one knows what's going to unfold.
Megan Leatherman (04:45.175)
And it is still absolutely possible that things could shift in helpful, beneficial ways in different areas of our personal lives and collective journey. So I just want to hold open the many possibilities that are on the table right now that are always there moment by moment while acknowledging that there's a lot to feel fearful of. And that's normal and it's natural and fear is very valuable in the right sort of context and when we need it. So I hope today's episode offers you some comfort and some ideas for ways you can exert your agency right now.
This work of being with what is here and discerning the next right step for each of us one by one in our own unique landscapes and communities and gifts, that is really the wild new work that each of us is being asked to do right now in our own unique ways. So I'm really grateful that we can come together today and explore some of these ideas. I want to share a couple of announcements before we really get going. The first of which is that I am opening up my books. Why do people say that? I guess people had planners or like scheduling books.
I'm opening up my calendar and energetic space and my heart for some vocational guidance this winter and spring. So that's gonna be offered one-on-one and in a small group. And it's taken me about nine months to open up to new clients again, because, you know, I try to do this work with as much integrity as I can. And I could tell that the last iteration of my one-on-one process that I would walk through with people was just ready for a change. And so I hit pause on taking on new clients and have been, I basically just set it aside for a while and stayed with the clients that I had. And finally this winter, it's sort of coming back around and is taking a little bit of a new shape. And so this process now, it will include 11 sessions over a few months. And it's essentially everything I know to be true at this time with regards to following and answering our callings in the context of capitalism. So it's an intensive spiritual process. We meet over eight weeks and then monthly. And again, I have a few one-on-one slots available and a small group that I'm offering. And we're going to start the week of February 24th and run Essentially through the summer because we'll be meeting one on one or we'll be meeting monthly through the summer so if you are feeling on the precipice of a change in your working life or if you're feeling the call to Do something different with your time? Well also acknowledging that you may need to earn an income and how can your gifts be born into the world? And what is their next form of expression and all of those big questions, if you're asking those and if coming along with someone who asks the same questions and has been walking with people for the last 10 years or so on this journey, then I would love to connect with you and potentially walk with you on this chapter of your journey. So you can learn more about that process at awildnewwork.com slash guidance.
I am also teaching a class on January 30th on winter visioning. And this is such a lovely thing to do any time of the year, but especially in the winter, just as life is beginning to return, we're seeing these little glimmers of rebirth, but they're not fully here yet. And it's very natural to want to plan and make new inroads and changes at this time. And that's all beautiful and something that can super duper help you in staying true to the planning and the flow that is most beneficial to you at this time is to do some visioning that helps you clarify the sort of most natural, easeful version of yourself at this time and what it might mean to live into that.
Megan Leatherman (09:28.375)
So rather than just listing like, here are all the things I want to do this year that I think will make me feel good or that, you know, are my goals. What if instead we started by asking, you know, who am I becoming? What is the most natural version of myself I can imagine at this time? And what are the actions or the steps that I can take to live into that version of myself, which in my experience, is a very generous version that is always, you know, able to give their gifts back to the community. So this isn't just about like becoming your best self. It's remembering that your best self naturally is going to give your gifts back to the community and the landscape that you live on in a regenerative way. So if that feels helpful or sounds interesting to you, I'd love to have you there on January 30th.
And it'll be recorded, but if you come live, there will be some, chance for us to connect and share in some discussion and workshopping of the material. So you can learn more about that at awildnewwork.com slash events. And there are some other winter classes that I'll be offering listed there too, if you're curious.
Finally, I want to say a big thank you to everyone supporting the show financially by pitching in, whether it's once as you can, those of you who have become sustainer members, I want to say thank you so much to all of you for sharing your money to help this go, and also sharing your kind words and just your vote of confidence in what this is and what I'm doing and what we're doing together. If you are listening and would like to support the show as well as receive a seasonal journal every season and get free access to all of my seasonal classes like the one I just mentioned, you can become a sustainer at buymeacoffee.com slash Megan Leatherman. And of course, if you just want to pitch in to support the show, those funds are always welcome on a one-off basis as well. So big thank you, especially to recent supporters, Uma, Amy, and Rachel. Thank you so much for chipping in and for believing in this work and being part of it.
Megan Leatherman (11:48.609)
Okay, well why don't we move into our opening invocation and then we'll dive into today's topic. So you might just take a moment to notice if you can feel any water in your body right now.
You might feel water that you just drank in your throat or your belly. You might attune to the water that is in each of your cells and that is allowing the blood to flow through your veins right now.
You might feel water in your mouth, the saliva, or in your eyes as tears.
Megan Leatherman (12:34.169)
Wherever you are, there is water with you. You wouldn't be here alive without this incredible element in this force that keeps life here on this planet. May each of us be blessed and emboldened to do the work we're meant to do on this planet. May our work honor our ancestors known and unknown, and may it be in harmony with all creatures that we share this earth with.
I express gratitude for all of the technologies and gifts that have made this possible, and I'm grateful to the Multnomah, Cowlitz, Bands of Chinook, and Clackamas tribes, among many others, who are the original stewards of the land that I'm on. Okay, well let's start by talking about water and winter. I came across this five element system gosh, maybe eight years ago with an acupuncturist in town who I loved who practiced five element acupuncture and have studied it for the last nine months or so, some of which was done with old school Nate who's been on the show. And now I'm studying it just myself through reading and just studying the land really. I think for a long time I felt kind of turned off by you know, the five elements or Taoism because it's very, it can seem kind of complex or inaccessible or very layered. And I think it's probably all of those things. And it's also just how the natural world works. These elements come together to make life on this planet. And when I could slow down enough to really hear what these elements are about and how they move, it just felt very natural. And like I was able to hear it because I had been learning from the land for a while and building that intimacy and that relationship. So I encourage you to keep this as simple as you need it to be for it to be useful and to learn more about the elements just by studying them on the land. And so today we're going to be talking a lot about water.
Megan Leatherman (14:51.577)
But of course, water is one of the five and the others are mineral, which in Taoism is often called metal, nature, which is often called wood, fire and earth. And these elements come together again to make life possible. And they're all inside of you and in your body. And they're all in the land that you're living on right now. And every element has its season and winter is water's season. We see water very prominently in the landscape right now. Out here where I live, the rivers are very full. There's a lot of rain. There's a lot of dew on the ground or frost on the ground in the mornings. Today it was very foggy. The clouds were very low and the air just felt wet. And so wherever you are, you may notice water as snow or ice. If you're somewhere warmer, it may come as rain or mist or just be present in the lakes or the oceans around you. And also when everything that usually grows during the spring and summer and fall has kind of fallen away, we can see the water much more clearly. Like in a wetland, you know, the landscape is not as lush right now. So we see these vast pools of water more clearly or like the lake.
You know, everything surrounding it may be very stark, but we see the fullness of the lake in the center. And water's direction is inward. So water and the winter is a time of drawing inward into ourselves, into a place of reception. The water is being collected by the earth and by a mineral. You know, the rain is being collected and forming into wetlands or rivers or coming down as snow and ice.
I talk a lot about this in my winter journal, so if you got one of those, then I'm sure this all sounds very familiar. Every season and every element, of course, has its risks or its dangers to us when it's at its extreme. And some of the risks of winter include, you know, being frozen, freezing, frostbite, hypothermia, you know, the body getting dysregulated because it's so cold.
Megan Leatherman (17:14.413)
The body is trying to heat itself up but may not be able to if we're very cold and wet for a long time. So there's this risk, this inherent risk to the winter season and to one of water's expressions, which can be ice or very cold liquid. And one of the emotions associated with water is fear. This sensation of kind of an inward collapse, the inability to move, to flow. We may become frozen in fear. And that doesn't mean that it's unnatural, right? Ice is not unnatural. Ice serves an absolutely necessary purpose. A frozen landscape can be exactly as it should be. So fear is not unnatural or bad. It's absolutely useful to us or else it wouldn't exist. But water doesn't just manifest as ice. The landscape is not always frozen.
Even in a place like Antarctica, ice is not the only story or the forever story. Water needs to move. It needs to take on different shapes. That's its essence. It becomes a gas or liquid or ice. It can move into and out of different densities. So water is inherently moving, but it moves in a different way than like fire does or a plant that grows.
And some people say that water is life itself or that water is the way, is the Tao itself, because life flows very similarly to water, sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes quiet, sometimes loud, sometimes in waves, sometimes in a constant current, but it's always moving, contained within itself, life absorbing life, just like a raindrop that rolls down your window will inevitably join up with other raindrops and find flow together within itself. So let's talk about fear specifically for a little bit. And a lot of this will be familiar to many of us right now. It's been a fearful chapter for a lot of people in human history right now. And again, this isn't bad. Fear is not bad, of course, but it can be helpful to know how to relate to it.
Again, if we are traversing through an icy landscape, you don't want to be wearing your flip-flops, right? You need some heavy-duty insulated boots, or you might need ice picks, or you need, you know, a very thick jacket. We just need different materials and different ways to relate to the fear, to find regulation in it, and to survive in it.
And I guess before we go any further, I want to say something specifically about being a person of European descent, a white person, feeling fearful right now. It's interesting because in a way, in many ways, we have participated in the system that is now feeling like it's turning against us, right? We have helped to make this culture that has given rise to fascism and in many ways we have benefited from the way things have been, the way that capitalism has grown, especially since the Industrial Revolution. But this culture, this way of living, this domination over nature, lifestyle, this capitalism has never actually been a true ally. It has been turned on us from the very beginnings. And that's important to remember This is not the first time that people of European descent have been attacked by capitalism and it will not be the last. And it doesn't mean that our experience is the same as people of color or people from areas that have been colonized. It's not true that we've had the same experiences or that we're victims of capitalism in the same ways, but it feels important to name the fact that it's not like we've been in a story where capitalism was so great for us and now it's not, because one of the things when you study the origins of capitalism and colonization, one of the things that becomes clear is that that story had to be fabricated so that white people would participate more readily and more enthusiastically in capitalism.
But in the very beginning, there was a lot of solidarity between people. I'm thinking about Silvia Federici's book, Caliban and the Witch, I teach in my class, Composting Capitalism. And she documents and talks a lot about how when people from Europe were sent over to the colonies, white people found a lot of solidarity with enslaved people or people in South America who were being colonized at that time.
And so racial hierarchy had to be created in order to break that solidarity. So while we white people have been participating in capitalism for far too long and have maybe misplaced that sense of solidarity, let's just remember that that had to be, that's a fake thing that got created. And that if we are experiencing hardship or stress about paying our bills or fear around a medical diagnosis and not having access to good health care. That's not just or not something that I want for everyone to experience. And if it brings us into greater solidarity with people who never got any reprieve from capitalism, who were not allowed to participate in it or benefit from it in any way.
And I'm not saying it's good to benefit from it, but maybe this is a chance for us to come into greater solidarity with others across the globe who maybe never forgot how harmful capitalism or dominant culture is. So I hope that came through in the ways that I intended it and that it feels supportive and not divisive. But it just feels important to me to name the fact that we've all been riding on this current of death for hundreds of years and it has manifested and impacted lives in different ways based on you know who we are and where we were born and all of those factors and we're just in a new section of it now but if you have a white body or European descent I just invite you into the fact that this system was never good for any of us except a very few select people.
And this is a chance for us to come home into a larger global story of resistance and possibility. One of the other places we find solidarity with within ourselves and within one another and the landscapes that we live on is remembering that water exists within each of us and exists all across the globe.
And that the rain that falls on me today comes from another place and that as we tend the water in our unique little area, even if it's in a small way or if we bless the water that we drink or whatever we do, that that water will travel to other people that we may not know and that it can carry blessings on our behalf. One of water's great gifts is acceptance.
It's something that water can teach us to get better and better at. When you put something into liquid water inside a container, the water will accept whatever you put into it. You know, if I drop my shoe in a lake, the lake will just accept the shoe. No questions asked. If there is a boulder in a river or a log, the water doesn't order everyone to stop until the boulder is moved, it accepts that it's there and it finds a way around it. The flow does not stop. So in relation to fear, we might consider the path of acceptance. Sometimes fear gets amplified or gets bigger because we're not allowing ourselves to accept the fear, to receive the fear. not allowing the shoe of fear to drop into the lake, even though that's what it wants to do. We might be, you know, busy and the fear doesn't really help us get our tasks done. The fear is annoying. It's uncomfortable. We don't have time to really go there.
But if the fear is encroaching like ice, or it's causing us to become hypothermic and dysregulated or to get frostbite and lose a sense of feeling, become numb, then one way to find regulation again is to accept that there is fear. I accept the boulder of this fear in my river. I accept this dirty shoe of fear in my lake.
Or we may even need to go into deeper waters and accept all of the possibilities that we're fearful of. It is possible that your greatest fears about fascism or climate change will come true. I have to hold my heart and accept those fears pretty much daily. And it is also possible, truly, I'm not just saying this, it is also possible that repair and safety can occur, that we can make the drastic collective changes that we need in order for the story to flow differently or to have a different next chapter. So acceptance is a helpful way to tend to the feeling of being frozen. We accept that the ice is here.
And we also accept the fact that there are many possibilities ahead of us, some of them very scary. And it's up to each of us to discern how deep we might need to go inside of the fear in order to accept it. Sometimes it's quick and shallow and it's just like, all right, there it is. I saw that headline. I'm going to hold my heart. The fear is here. There's a little icicle forming. Okay.
Other times we have to swim way into the depths of our sorrows and our anxiety and have the fortitude to really look at what is underneath the iceberg or to really look at what those worst case scenarios and fears are. And so I encourage you to use your own wisdom and sense of discernment to see when fear comes up and we feel that sense of being frozen or like there's not an opportunity to move or we feel that sense of numbness or dysregulation to discern how deep we might need to go in order to accept that it's there and where how deep the acceptance needs to go really.
We can also bring in the other elements to help thaw this icy fear if it begins to feel like it's too much or it's consuming us.
So maybe we'll start by looking at mineral, the stones, the shells, the glass, the sand, the periodic table of elements, mineral element. One of the things that can really help us to thaw and become unfrozen when we need to is time. You know, the stones show us what it means to live in or accept the reality of deep, slow, long time.
Maybe we need to remember that this is a very small little blip in the course of history on this planet. Maybe we need to remember that we have ancestors who lived through times just as scary or complicated as these, if not more so. Maybe you just need an hour a day to really feel your fear. Maybe it needs more space for you to value it and to not denigrate it, but to say, okay, maybe the fear is useful in a way here. I accept that it's here. And maybe it needs to be defined, named, written down, specified. Those are all ways that the mineral element can support us. Maybe we need to hold a stone actually, or hold a piece of quartz as we feel our fear.
There's also the element of fire and the heat of movement. And it's a different quality of movement, of course, than water. Fire is up and out. It's consumptive. It needs fuel to burn. It's connecting us to others. It comes from the heart and the small intestine. So maybe you need to make a heart-led choice or journal from your heart and spend time with what your heart's wisdom has to say about this sensation of being frozen.
Maybe you need to share your fear with others or come into the warmth of someone who lives by their heart and learn from them. The nature element is really interesting to consider in relation to ice because we know that as the ice caps melt in the Arctic, especially big mammals like polar bears and walruses are really suffering because they don't have as many ice floes to rest on or to, you know, hunt on. And the nature element is the world in which all living beings, plants and animals and fungi live. So what would it mean if your fear, this ice, the sensation of frozen, being frozen, could actually become a home, an ice flow for a walrus or a seal or a polar bear? You know, could you make a home for someone else or for your own dreams, your own nature, your own growth or the growth of someone else, even in the midst of the fear. You know, maybe the fear is there and it's a really heavy, thick block of ice. But could someone come, could some dream come along and just rest on it? You know, could you grow or give life to something even in spite of the fear? Or maybe your fear is showing you a way to grow. Maybe your fear is an obstacle that comes up to push you in a direction that's necessary right now in order for you to grow. And finally, in terms of the earth element, if you imagine a frozen landscape or maybe soil that is frozen a few inches or even a foot down, where is it possible for you to make a restful spot for yourself or find a cave or a cellar underground and find rest even as the landscape above you is frozen. Not freezing yourself maybe, but making rest in the midst of it. Dreaming, you know, the ice is there. Okay, the fear is here. I'm not feeling like I can move with a lot of agency or freedom. I'm gonna rest instead. I'm gonna dream. I'm gonna ask for help to come to me in my dreams. And in doing that, perhaps over time in the morning, I'll wake up feeling less frozen and maybe it will thaw a little bit.
Ice is so beautiful, you know, even as it's destructive, it's tremendously beautiful and special and it doesn't come around, you know, all year for most of us, depending on the landscape you live in. Fear can be beautiful too, because it means you're alive.
You're human. In your fear, you're having an experience that your earliest ancestors had, that probably every living being on this planet has had or is having right now. So the fear, the ice, again, it's not bad. We just want to know how to relate to it and find some strategies for thawing if that's something that we need.
So when we have adequately thawed, maybe the fear is loosened a bit or we've accepted it or we've brought in some heat or time to allow it to melt. When we are thawed enough, then we can pool the waters that are raining down or that are melting around us. So one of the real beauties of winter in the landscape that I live in is that the water has a chance to really pool and fill up in the soil, in the lakes, in all of the places where water finds a container and finds a home. And if you've ever meditated or studied any spiritual tradition or practice energetic healing or just are alive, I'm sure you've had the experience of getting in a very still inward, quiet place and finding that even underneath the busy mind or the grief or the feeling of being frozen,
Under all of that, there is a constantly flowing state of peace and love and healing. And this is not weird woo-woo stuff. It's available. It's just part of your lived experience. And it's not always easy to tap into. But that is my experience and the experience of many other people - that when we find that quiet place, that watery, still place inside of us, there is just an infinite well of peace and love, that that is kind of the backdrop, the hum of life itself on this planet.
And so we can allow that more and more to pool and gather inside of us in this wintry time so that when we need it, our aquifers are full. We have the water required in our inner soil for our seeds, our dreams, our visions to awaken when it's the right time. And then we can know what to do next. When we're full with the water of you know, whatever word lands for you, peace or love or wisdom, fortitude, the water of healing energy, the water of life itself within you, when that those lakes and aquifers inside of you are full, which requires that there's a chance for water to thaw, the fear to thaw, that there's been enough openness and time and acceptance for you to receive the quiet and the peace that you need.
inevitably when there's earth and mineral and water coming together in a sturdy self and a sturdy person at sturdy moments, of course no one's always sturdy, then life and nature can inevitably come in and new things will grow and that's where we're going in the spring, but we're not quite there yet. This is still an excellent time to allow that water to thaw, to pool within you, to feel an inward sense of acceptance and peace and stillness where you need it.
One of Waters attributes is wisdom, knowing what to do with what you know, looking at the situation, accepting where you are in your life, your unique context, the realities that capitalism creates around you, the realities of the healing, loving energy that is available at all times and flowing through this life. Knowing what to do with all of that.
Where to flow, when to flow, how to flow. So you might consider what are some wise ways to fortify yourself and those in your immediate ecosystem right now. You know, if you can tend to your ice, to your fear, be still and allow water to pool within you, you will know what to do next.
Not what to do for the next five years or even the next five months or weeks or minutes maybe, but you will have an inkling of what to do in this next moment and then the next. So where is there a fullness right now? Where is there a natural flow, a natural energy around growth or regeneration? I believe you are where you are for a reason and that if you can, again, find that stillness, that inward turn, and notice where things seem to want to flow naturally, easily, like water, that you can trust that and follow that. And it can be soft and flexible. It will probably go one way and then another. Water doesn't care about being linear or making sense or going where it's always gone.
It's going to follow the path of least resistance. It's going to follow gravity and where it needs to flow. And where you're invited to create more sturdiness and resilience for yourself and your community right now is probably going to map on to your natural gifts because that's natural. So it flows easily, right? So it may depend. It depends on what your unique gifts are. You may find that fortification comes easily through the ways that you like to care for yourself and others or land tending or accounting for different possibilities or planning or connecting with others or having fun or making wonderful, beautiful experiences for people or just creating more beauty in the world. Follow your gifts, follow the flow of those. You can trust them and you can trust them and take a step.
and do something and then come back into your inner stillness and the water that's in you and always available. I think this is how we can cultivate wisdom is trusting the way these elements flow in our bodies, trusting ourselves, our inclinations and making the decisions that feel fluid and natural in the context that we're in as best we can and then we'll learn from them and we'll see what's what next time.
In my learning about Taoism and the elements, I've been reading the Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu and I really like Ursula Le Guin's version. If you just look up the Tao Te Ching and Ursula Le Guin, you'll find her version of it. And I think it's really beautifully done and has made the material feel really real and true. she has lots of really helpful notes and
There's a poem or a piece in it called Hardness by Lao Tzu. And I want to read this for you today and read Ursula Le Guin's quick note about it. And yeah, and then we'll close. So this is called Hardness.
Living people
are soft and tender.
Corpses are hard and stiff.
The ten thousand things,
the living grass, the trees,
are soft, pliant.
Dead, they’re dry and brittle.
So hardness and stiffness
go with death;
tenderness, softness,
go with life.
And the hard sword fails,
the stiff tree’s felled.
The hard and great go under.
The soft and weak stay up.
And then Le Guin has this note, she writes, in an age when hardness is supposed to be the essence of strength and even the beauty of women is reduced nearly to the bone. I welcome this reminder that tanks and tombstones are not very adequate role models and that to be alive is to be vulnerable. So I hope that inspires you to stay soft and pliant, even weak and vulnerable today that in that is your strength.
And that the fear is never the only story. Fear is one modality, one expression of water and feeling, but it's not the entire story. And that it's not bad and you're not bad for feeling afraid by any means. And you have choice about what to do with that fear and how you want to relate to it. And I'm with you in this process. Absolutely. I'm here with you trying to become wiser and more resilient and a better adult in these trying times and I hope we can all stay soft and like water this winter especially and for as long as it's helpful and anytime it's helpful. So let's keep going. We're doing it and I'm with you and my heart's with you.
I hope today's episode has felt useful to you. If you would like to support the show, always so grateful and you can do that at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Megan Leatherman. I'll be back with you in two weeks with an interview that I'm really excited about and yeah, so we'll be together again soon. In the meantime, I hope you will take such good care and I'll see you on the other side.