Trusting Your Instincts, with Dr. Carolyn Kurle

Hello, my friend. On episode 86 of my podcast, A Wild New Work, I’m in conversation with Dr. Carolyn Kurle, tenured biology professor at University of California, San Diego, and the author of The Guidance Groove: Escape Unproductive Habits, Trust Your Intuition, and Be True.

You can listen at the link below, on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you stream. There’s also a written transcript below the audio file!

A Wild New Work · 86. Trusting Your Instincts, with Dr. Carolyn Kurle

Megan: Hi friends, and welcome. I'm really excited to share this conversation with Dr. Kurle today. She brings her scientific background to our discussion about what instincts really are and how we can repair them if they have been damaged. How to expand the pathways to your inner guidance so that you know what you need and how to meet those needs. We bring in some of the wisdom from the animal world, plant world, and it was just a really rich conversation that I am so delighted to share.

This has been a topic at the forefront of my life as I've taken some space from life and work to kind of re-energize and tend to some minor health stuff that's come up. And I knew that that was necessary, but I didn't realize how necessary it was. And we often don't until we actually take the space.

And it has made room for some big internal shifts that I didn't expect, but obviously a part of me knew that I needed this space and then new insights could come through, and I'm still trying to make sense of what that means for me and this work, but I will definitely share more as it coalesces. It has felt very in sync with the beginning of the new Zodiac year. The sun moved into the sign of Aries on March 20th, I believe, and now we're on the precipice of another shift as the sun moves into the sign of Taurus , and we come into the mid-spring period. We're shifting from the fire element with Aries into the earth element with Taurus, and there is a stabilizing of the creative forces of spring that's happening.

You might notice that you start wanting to move more slowly. You might notice that you want to really deeply enjoy and see and soak up what is happening around you in the natural world as life returns. And of course this is happening within us too. Even if we're not aware of it, our bodies are absolutely synced up with, its what's happening in the seasons, and so I encourage you if this resonates to not just skate through or rush through this time, but to really. Enjoy it and sink into it as much as you can with as much presence as you can muster. You know, this is it. This is life. There's nothing more than this, and it's a beautiful time in the cycle of the year, and so I hope we can all soak it up even a little more than perhaps is usual.

Before I introduce Dr. Kurle, I want to remind you or let you know that I'm offering a Summer Solstice retreat in late June. This is something that I've wanted to do for a long time. I'm really excited about gathering with people in person, in an old growth forest alongside the Sandy River, and we will be exploring how to embody, how to become the summer in our lives, how to step into mastery and fullness, into clarity of sight, stepping into greater power and generosity through the work that you're being called to do at this time. And if you're not sure what that is, that's okay. That will be part of our discovery. So we'll be gathering on June 21st on the summer solstice itself. That's a Wednesday. We will be meeting at a place called Oxbow Regional Park here outside of Portland.

I will be doing some teaching. We will be work shopping together. There will be some ceremony, ritual. There will be a guided forest therapy walk with my guest from the last episode, Heather Dorfman, and a lot more lusciousness and ways to really shift the momentum and ride the waves that come with the summer solstice and with cancer season here in the Northern Hemisphere, so you can learn all about it at a wild new work.com/summer retreat.

I'll put that link in the show notes, and I would love to have you if this is something that you think you could benefit from. So let me introduce Dr. Kurle to you all and then we can dive into our conversation. Dr. Carolyn Kurle is a tenured biology professor at the University of California San Diego, and the author of multiple research articles and the book, The Guidance Groove: Escape Unproductive Habits, Trust Your Intuition and Be True.

Her work with hundreds of outstanding students at U C S D, many of whom paradoxically struggle to find ease, motivated her to create the guidance groove, an accessible manual for connecting with your intuition to increase personal authenticity and contentment. So before we dive into our conversation, I just wanna read our opening invocation and then invite you into Dr. Kurle's wonderful insights. So wherever you are, you can just take a big, deep breath, notice your body and time and space. May each of us be blessed and emboldened to do the work we're meant to do on this. May our work honor our ancestors known and unknown, and may it be in harmony with all creatures that we share this earth with.

I express gratitude for all of the technologies and gifts that have made this possible, and I'm grateful to the Cowlitz and Clackamas tribes among many others who are the original stewards of the land that I'm on.

Carolyn, thank you so much for being here and sharing your insights with us today.

Carolyn: Thank you so much for having me, Megan. It's really nice to join you.

Megan: Your background is in biology, ecology, sciences, and I wanted to hear more about, from your perspective as a biologist but also the author of a book now that's focused on the inner guidance systems, I wanted to hear your perspective on sort of the biological mechanisms of instinct or how you think of instincts. What is it really, and how is it different from logic or rationale?

Carolyn: That's such a great question. So first of all, it's not really known. We've had this idea, oh, the bird knows when to migrate because it's an instinct, right?

It's this, this magical thing that's happened in the brain of this animal that causes it to, to do something that seems potentially illogical, but actually they're learning now, some instincts - what we've thought of is in intrinsic instincts are actually learned behaviors, and it's just really subtle and it's really hard to understand how that data or that knowledge is passed from one generation to another.

And there is even indications, and I mentioned this in the book very briefly, that some of that can be passed on in genetic structure from parent to offspring. But the short answer is nobody really knows for certain where these instinctual behaviors come from. And there's many approaches to trying to figure out where they come from.

But the answer is we don't really know. But there's indicators that some of these behaviors are definitely learned, but we just don't really understand how to study how exactly they're learned because it's so subtle and we as humans might not be able to observe it. So that's, that's the instinct part.

And then the second one you asked - logic, right, versus instinct. And I really like this question because I'm a scientist, right? So I rely on logic. I love logic. We need logic to study what we study in my lab.

I run a conservation action lab at University of California, San Diego, and we look at what animals eat and where they spend their time so we can better understand how to conserve habitats and species, and I use my logic all the time. Well, what is a logical question that we can ask and what can we logically answer with the data that we collect?

But I think that we get confused as human beings, as people that we think logic and the stories that our brains fabricate for us, that that is what we should trust when we move through the world doing things other than solving scientific problems or inventing a bridge or figuring out whatever we do for our work, our day-to-day lives .

We use our logic for all these really important things, but we trick ourselves into thinking that logic and our thinking brains are the things that should move us all the time and provide all the data for us as we make our decisions, as we move through the world.

And I would say that that's just not true. That we have this whole other system of data that our body, that our feeling selves give. That we can also rely on for data to make decisions moving forward. So I separate logic out as this great problem solving tool that people tend to apply to everything but they don't need to.

It's just cuz we've been tricked into it because in our culture we think that logic is so lauded and something to be celebrated and we forget that we have this feeling part of ourselves. We have this intuitive part of our selves. That, again, going back to instinct in us not knowing, we don't really understand where that intuitive instinctual guidance part comes in.

We, we don't know where it comes from and because we can't explain it, we tend to disregard it frequently and go to our logic selves instead. So does that help delineate between the two types of thought?

It's a feeling, it's a bodily sensation, et cetera. So does that make sense?

Megan: Yeah. I really appreciate what you said about how important logic is, but that we sometimes rely on it for everything and it has a place and a time, and that's helpful to think about that. It's not good or bad, it just is useful in different scenarios.

Carolyn: It's just one of our tools and we forget that we have other tools to bring into play and give the other tools just as much weight and and value in our lives as we give our logical brains. Yeah.

Megan: So your book is really about finding that reconnection and staying very close to what you called your guidance groove - These other ways of knowing that, again, might not be able to be explained or totally logical, quote unquote, but are really important. And I find in my work with people that a lot of people have forgotten how to trust that. And the relationship to it gets kind of broken. I was just talking to a client who feels these feelings of disgust when she thinks about taking on this new project, but is totally overriding those with all the reasons, the logical reasons why she has to, you know?

And how do you rebuild the trust when that gets broken and we stop listening?

Carolyn: That's really important. Let's use your client. So your client has an actual physical feeling of disgust. Disgust comes about when you see something gross that you wanna avoid, right? And so if you, if you saw something gross, like if, if you opened your refrigerator and there were maggots crawling on something, or, or you, you went down in your basement and there's a dead rat or something gross, you have disgust, you clean up the problem, you clean it, and you move on.

If you'll feel those same feelings to something that's less tangible, like a work project, there's no rotting rat to clean up. There's just this feeling, right? Your client's really lucky because they are having a strong response. Now, the next step is to notice the response, so that's great that your client can actually recognize they're feeling disgust.

That's pretty strong. Okay? Then the next step is write it down or somehow make note of. I like data, right? So that would be a data point for me. I feel disgusted when faced with this thing that I must do at work. I'm writing that down. Where, why do I feel disgust? You know, what is it? Then your logic brain can help you determine where is that feeling coming from?

Is it because of the people I'm gonna have to work with? Is it because I'm not prepared for the project? Where is the feeling coming from? And your logic brain can help you interpret that feeling. So then you can write down that and say, okay, this is probably where the disgust is coming from. I really don't like working with that person, or I really don't like this topic, or I don't like that client or something.

It's not right for me. Then you can decide, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Cause my logical brain is telling me if I don't do it X, Y, Z, write down what happens when you do it. Does the disgust increase? Does it decrease? Are you miserably unhappy for the six weeks you're on that project? Write that down. And then the more you start to pay attention to these feelings, that could be much more subtle than disgust.

And writing them down, noticing them, I'm getting a feeling that's different from what my logic brain is telling me. I'm gonna write that down. I'm gonna explore. Get to the bottom of it. Why are you feeling that? And then write down the outcome when you follow the feeling or don't follow it. And now you're collecting data.

You're being a scientist actually, and you're collecting data. Okay, I didn't follow my, my guidance on that thing, and then I was miserable for eight weeks. Or I did follow it and look what happened instead. How amazing. And then you start to build up this, this data bank of information that allows you to trust those feelings, right?

Because now you can say, wait a minute, when I felt this before And I didn't do it, look what came about instead, that was so much better. Or look what happened when I ignored it and I was miserable. And you start to be able to trust it. And you can do it with tiny things. It doesn't have to be giant work projects or huge decisions.

It can be the tiniest thing. Do I feel like taking my toddler to that park right now? No. It feels bad, but all the moms or dads are going to be there. Everyone's expecting me. You know, they can be tiny decisions like that. No, I think we need to go to the library this morning instead. That feels better. And then write down what happened when you followed or didn't follow.

So I guess all that to say is once you start paying attention to these feelings and just the noticing, then you can start to build a data bank of what happens when you listen or don't listen, and those are data then that can help you learn to trust those feelings that are nebulous at first and maybe indescribable.

But I promise everyone has them, because they're ubiquitously mentioned in our culture and pop culture and everywhere. And so pay attention. Pay attention to what happens when you follow or don't follow. Write it down, and then you are building up data to trust it more and more and more.

Megan: What I really appreciate about that is that every person can come up with their own data points, like disgust for me might feel different in my body than her or, you know, it's one thing to say like, you gotta trust these feelings because I know in my experience they're helpful.

But it is so important for every person to have their own data bank, like you said, that is meaningful to them, not just this blind, like "you gotta follow your gut or whatever." Yeah. And I know there's probably no way to know this definitively, but so many of us are really good at overriding those feelings. Do you think other animals do that? I mean, are other animals out there like, you know, a bird's like, "Ooh, I really want that worm," but they don't because they don't wanna put on extra weight. I don't know. Like, do you think other animals are out there overriding their instincts as much as we do?

Carolyn: I don't know the literature on this, unfortunately. Of course, I'm a scientist, so I'm always worried about saying something that might be contradicted in the literature, but from my experience, no. But animals make mistakes of course, all the time. I spent a lot of time working on Northern Fur Seals up on the PR Bluff Islands in Alaska, and I would sit on scaffolding and watch the females giving birth. Right? And the younger mothers made mistakes and I watched one female, she gave birth. The baby's coming out. She whips her backend around. The baby's head is literally bashed on a rock and dies before it even gets out. She made a mistake, right? That is not an instinctual thing. She went against nature, right? She accidentally killed her baby, but, and young mothers will make more mistakes, right? They have to provision their pup or whatever, and the, the mom has to go out and get food and then find her pup again. There's lots of potential error that can happen.

And so I think animals make mistakes. They get lost on migration, et cetera, but by and large, if that worm is in front of them, they're gonna eat it cuz they don't care that they're gonna get quote unquote fat. They don't have these crazy stories in their brains that we humans have done to ourselves, what we've done to ourselves.

Animals don't seem to have those things that would cause them to override what' s screaming at them for them to do. But as humans, we have these brains that have made up all of these stories. In the book, I call them unproductive grooves, and these stories we make up kind of trap us in these unproductive grooves that convince us to ignore these intuitive guidance moments that we have throughout our day, and I think that's something that's unique to humans and it comes from our upbringing, societal programming. There's a million reasons why we have these voices in our heads telling us nonsense. But I don't think animals have that. I haven't seen evidence of it. No. They have grief and lots of other things, but I don't think they override their instinct.

Megan: I feel happy to know that there are many other creatures who aren't in the same boat. You also talk about how this concept of authenticity, which I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think is really about coming into wholeness with yourself and acting from that place of, in your being, in your own sort of groove.

And you talk about the link between authenticity and wellbeing, and I wanted to hear more about that link and anything else you wanna say about defining authenticity. It's a word that gets used a lot and I would love to hear sort of how you work with it and how it's connected to a more holistic wellbeing.

Carolyn: Yeah. So in, in writing this book, it was really important for me to figure out what contributes to quote unquote, happiness and happiness is this term that's overused and, and misunderstood and so, but it, but it got me thinking, what is it that contributes to happiness? But then I thought, not so much happiness, but ease as you move through the world. If you have ease in your life, then a byproduct of that is more happiness.

Right. And so if we step back, I, I looked at, again, I did look at the literature from the psychology literature a little bit, and, and the thing that kept coming back was this relationship of measures of human wellbeing that were highly, positively correlated with this idea of being authentic. And authenticity is defined as being true to yourself.

And I take that to mean that we have this voice inside of us, this guidance, this intuition, and I don't know where it comes from. I don't know if it's something innate in our actual physiological structure. I don't know if it's spirit, I don't know if it's, some people call it God, Buddha Nature. There's all these amazing terms for what we're talking about as guidance.

I don't know where it comes from . But when you listen to that, that is your most authentic spark, right? And when your brain makes up stories to cover up that authentic spark, that authentic instinctual movement towards something, then all of a sudden you're being inauthentic. You're being fake. And we do this for like any number of reasons, as I said.

To fit in to because we were told we have to be a certain way, because our parents told us that we were bad or good if we did or didn't do certain things. And that authenticity, that being brave enough to listen to that voice that's truly guiding you allows you to present as authentic. And then the data actually show that the more you're in your authentic self, the happier and more at peace and more at ease and more just overall wellbeing you experience as a, as a human. So, so that authenticity to me is simply following your truest self without listening to the nonsense that your brain and everyone else's brains are trying to tell you.

Megan: Any hallmarks you see, I guess, or signs that you are in touch with your truest self?

You know, the fear can be very loud. The body can be in fight or flight, you know, but how do you know when it's that voice, the, the truth of you? Are there any things that you look for?

Carolyn: So for me personally, my voice can take on many different guises, including an actual voice. So I talk about this a little bit in the book, but this happened the minute I saw my former spouse. I walked into this brew pub.

I was meeting my dearest friend Shauna, and she had met this man Christian, and she had texted me and said, "oh, meet us at this, this brew pub. Um, you're gonna really love my new friend Christian. He's great." I walk in the door, I can see Shauna walking to the bathroom. I see Christian, and I don't think he had seen me yet.

And I actually heard a voice in my head that said, sorry. I'm gonna swear for a second: "Oh shit. Your life as you know it is over." And I was like, oh my gosh, pay attention. And, and sure enough then, you know, we ended up getting married and having a child and, and that was an extremely transformative experience for me.

Now, let's back up a little bit. So I heard this voice, we went on a date a couple days later. At the beginning of the date, he asked me if I had wanted children, and I said, I've never wanted children. They're not interesting to me. And he said, yeah, I gave up on that. By the end of the day, I turned to him and I said, I really feel like we're gonna have children together.

And then we proceeded for the next year to have the most miserable relationship I've ever had. It was so hard. We fought about everything and I had never fought with anyone. And of course, if I hadn't had that super strong intuition that I was supposed to do something important with this other human, I would've bailed.

And he and I talk about this a lot. And at one point we, we were just, I remember we were sitting on his couch. I'm like, fine, let's go to therapy. And we went to therapy. And that was, of course, transformative couple's therapy . And I even remember the therapist saying, why do you stay together? And I, I, I told her, I cannot shake the feeling that we're supposed to do this, even though it's really, really hard and it makes no logical sense. So there's one example of a very strong feeling. Sure enough, we got married, we have this child because we went to that therapy, we've ended up being able to stay very close as a family even though we're not married. He lives two blocks away from me.

We co-raise our son, who's now 15. But I'm just saying that sometimes the guidance is so strong, the feeling is so strong that even in the face of like roaring horribleness, I still went for it because it was so strong and I cannot explain it. The voice was there, but this feeling in my whole being that we were supposed to work through this hardness because of what was coming.

And sometimes it's not as as obvious as that. Sometimes it's just like your, your client, an actual feeling of physical disgust, or maybe it's a weird internal feeling of, I shouldn't say weird, but uh, intangible internal feeling of discord. So sometimes I picture my guidance as a lake inside of me, and when my lake is calm, then I know straight ahead, keep going.

And now I've gotten, so even when there's slight ripples on my lake, I pay attention. I'm like, wait a minute, something's wrong because my lake feels a little off. And then I figure out, what is it that's wrong? Again, I bring in my logic brain cuz it can really help you figure out things. I feel deeper into that little ripple that's off and then I figure out what it is and then I stop direction and I move toward a different direction. And oh, lo and behold, the lake calms down, and each person has these little subtle cues. I think that they, many people have just stopped learning how to listen for them . And when I say listen, yeah, it could be a voice in your head, but it could also be a feeling, some physicalized expression of the way you know in which to go.

And when I teach this, I taught the book as a seminar last summer at University of California San Diego, where I'm a professor and I'm teaching it again this summer. And when I ask my students, "How many of you have had a full body yes or a full body no?" In response to some big question in your life, every single student has at least one, and in many cases, many stories.

So I would encourage your listeners to think about when they've had these full body yeses and full body nos that were obvious, and then try and decipher, well, what are the more subtle cues my body has given? That are not quite So full body, yes. Full body, no. And then start to explore the more subtle cues and, and you'll start to learn what your body, your feeling self does to tip you off as to which direction to go.

And again, it's about collecting data and paying attention to yourself and giving yourself permission to even know that you have that voice or that feeling or that impression to even go toward or listen to or find. And a lot of people don't even know they have it. But once they start to learn about it and think about it, they realize they do have it.

And it happens all the time. They've just been ignoring it or making it seem inconsequential.

Megan: Is your experience that once people start to pay attention to it, well, I guess my experience is that it can grow, or like the learning from it can happen more quickly. It feels like a muscle or a skill that you can build.

Is that yours too?

Carolyn: Absolutely, and I even think back, like I think when I first started thinking about this book, and it was an idea. It was trying to understand why I experienced life with a lot of ease when a lot of people who are magnificent, amazing, beautiful, bright humans were not experiencing ease.

And I remember thinking it's because of this authenticity part, right? And this guidance. And I learned it really young. I grew up Catholic and I had this amazing priest who was very progressive. I t was not a traditional Catholic church and it was up in, on the Seattle area. I'm from the northwest, so I'm, I relate to you being up in Portland.

He told me very young, "let go and let God," and that's basically the same. I don't believe in any of the Catholic things anymore, but that was the germ of truth given to me when I was very young that you don't have to, you can let go and feel some data coming in and or inside you or intuition. You don't have to always figure it out.

You can let go and see what the flow of life is presenting for you and then follow the flow of that rather than trying to get your brain to tell you exactly where you need to go every single moment and. I'm sorry I've already forgotten your question, but I, but I just, that idea of knowing that that voice is there and just recognizing that I've had that for my whole life.

Oh, I know. I was practicing and then I remember actually taking that to heart as a child and just trying it. I'm just gonna try this crazy idea that Father Godly put out there to let go and let God. And lo and behold, when you do that, when you start to let go and let go of the logic and the thoughts in your brain and feel into the flow of what's happening in your life, you start to notice that there is a flow and you can follow it.

And so, yes, it's definitely a muscle that once you notice it and start flexing it, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger until the time between the thought entering your brain and you dismissing the thought is nonsense, and going into your intuition is moments, it's seconds. Sometimes it takes minutes, sometimes it takes days.

Sometimes it takes a whole year to figure it out. But when you start to flex that muscle and grow it, it can just be instantaneous. Almost like you just, you get, oh wait, my brain is trying to trick me. What is my guidance telling me? That's the direction I'm supposed to go. So yes, it's a habit. It's definitely habitual.

Megan: It sounds like another piece of that habit is something you talk about, but you call it benevolent intentionality, and I like that because I think it's letting go, but with a little bit of pre-work, it sounds like. Can you say more about what that concept is and how it fits in here?

Carolyn: Yeah, sure.

It's true what you said about the pre-work is important. So there's this concept people talk about called spiritual bypass, right? Where you're like, wait a minute, I'm just gonna follow my guidance. I don't need to investigate anything. My guidance is telling me this. Go away. That's ignoring the problem.

So your friend with or your client with the disgusted feeling like it's such a great example, I keep coming back to it. So that person could say, I'm feeling disgusted. I'm not doing this project. Everyone go away. Or they could think, okay, I'm feeling this. What's happening to cause this? Why am I feeling this?

Let's go into the the fear or the feeling. Let's really investigate this feeling. Then I can know the source. Maybe I'm feeling disgusted because I'm terrified that I'm gonna be found inadequate for this task. Is that even true? Wait a minute, I'm not inadequate. Or if I am, I know how to get help and become better.

And once they find the source of the disgust, maybe it's something that can be solved. And the disgust was merely an invitation to look closer at the thing in front of them. And so they do their work and now they can act on their guidance with a little more information. And that's where benevolent intentionality comes in.

You feel into your guidance, and then you set your intention to follow your guidance. And make a decision. You set that intention for the outcome to be for the best and highest good for yourself and everyone around you. And that's that benevolent intentionality, that goodness with intention. You want to intentionally decide which direction you're going, in, which way you're gonna flow with your life.

In this idea of, of goodness, what's going to be the outcome for the best and highest good. And it might not look like what you expect it to look like, right? So you know, the best and highest good might be you disappoint a bunch of people. But that's still the best and highest good because you're following your guidance, you're preserving your, what I also call benevolent boundaries.

You are preserving your own spark of light. And yeah, someone might be disappointed, but in the grand scheme of things, it is for the best and highest good because you've been your most authentic self. And now those disappointed people can go find whomever will do the project better, or will do whatever they want to do in a way that's even better, but they won't be engaging you because you're not the right person for it, because it's not in your best interest.

So again, this idea of benevolent intentionality. You're not just wildly making decisions based on "my guidance is telling me this." You're couching it in, what is the decision for the best and highest good for everyone involved? Including my own spark of goodness and light that I am the protector of, that I'm the guardian of, which is just as important as everyone else's spark of light.

So yeah, that's what I mean by benevolent intentionality. It's just the best and highest good. What decision is for the best and highest good for everyone?

Megan: So it sounds like feeling that initial feeling that you get, using some logic to investigate. And then once you have a little bit of clarity, holding space for whatever, like you said is in the best and highest stood good to sort of come through or for that to be your guiding next steps.

Carolyn: Exactly. And it, it sounds so arduous and painstaking, but really, like you said, with the muscle thing, once you sort of get the hang of it and you do it, It becomes second nature, and the best part is you can practice it all day long. You have a billion decisions, large and small, so you can just keep practicing.

And if you miss the mark, no big deal. You just reinvestigate. Turn around and try again. I mean, we all know. And then, you know, say you don't take your child to the park, you take them to the library, well then maybe you know, you, maybe you realize, well, I didn't wanna go to the park cause I didn't wanna run into that one person.

Okay, I need to investigate that relationship, why I'm dreading the park or whatever, you know? And you just get more and more information that then helps you to understand when it's time to use it and when it's time to investigate a little more.

Megan: I like the ease and spaciousness of just knowing we have our whole lives to figure this out. It can get easier. So you're bringing this work into your, like your work sphere. You offered this as a seminar. What are you noticing or what did you notice when your students start to incorporate some of this?

Carolyn: The main piece of feedback, so first of all, my students at UC San Diego were one of my main inspirations for writing this because they would come to my office hours and they, I can't tell you, Megan, they're... it's really hard to get into our university. So already we have this huge crop of amazing humans that are amazing.

They're the best of the best at what they do, and they were so plagued with self-doubt and imposter syndrome and parental stresses and their own stresses. "I have to get a great job." "I have to do only this major, or else I won't make any money." All of these stories were in their heads and I just wanted to take each one of them and just say, "stop."

"Relax," you know, and, and reassure them that those voices weren't true and that they weren't alone. And so when I actually got to teach these concepts and I saw my students start to soften their voices and start to distrust those voices and trust instead their own authentic selves, they said it was transformative because no one had actually given them permission to quiet their brain and question their brain and question all the messages that they were getting, that they had to be doing this by a certain age, or they, if they would be a failure if they didn't do this, or getting a B means you're, you don't belong at this university and just opening their minds to the possibility that their brains were lying to them with these stories and that these unproductive grooves that they were getting stuck in of like being inadequate or feeling obligated, or that resources were scarce or that they were unworthy weren't true.

It was remarkable. Was remarkable to watch that, honestly, to just give themselves permission to pause before believing the thoughts in their brain. Pause and feel into their body. What's my body actually telling me? What am I feeling here? What's my intuition even telling me? Do I even have intuition? Just for them to notice and take that moment was sort of magical.

And then also watching how they related to their peers and to one another. I even had a husband and wife team in the seminar. They, you know, they're very young in their early twenties. And I didn't know they were husband and wife till we were halfway through. And, and they, they shared with me privately that it helped their relationship and how they related to one another.

And because they were able to voice these fears that were in their brains and they were able to voice them with their peers and with one another. And just to relax that and recognize that it was, it was really lovely to watch, like just give themselves permission to not listen and not listen to their parents either.

‘Cuz our parents love us, good parents love their children. It's hardwired, right? And they want what's best for us, but they also have fears for us. And it's the very unique parent that hasn't pushed some of those fears onto their children. And so giving them permission to view their parents' fears as also not true, and they don't have to listen to them and they can again, find their own authentic voice and follow the direction of whatever makes them feel lightest and most at ease and happier.

Yeah, it was wonderful to watch. I'm excited to teach it again this summer. I've taught the book also as a couple seminars to retired groups online, and one of those people said At the end, "what if you don't have a spark of light inside of you?"

And it just almost makes you cry because every living thing has whatever the spark is. I have no idea what it is, grace? No idea. But we all have it. It's just, it gets jumped up by these crazy thoughts. I shouldn't say crazy. Thoughts that are not true, that are plaguing us and we junk up that beautiful spark.

And I just reassured that, man, you do have it. Everyone has it, and it's beautiful and it's there and it's, everyone has it for the taking. Just have to recognize it, listen to it, learn to trust it, et cetera.

Megan: I'm just thinking how amazing it would be if everyone learned, or if this was modeled more, you know, that you didn't have to wait until college or grad school to learn this or, or until you're retired, you know, and convinced that you have nothing to offer.

How important it is that more people at younger ages know how to connect to that and listen to that. This may not be true all the time, but in my experience, you can't really go wrong. I think listening to it, you know, it doesn't mean that your intuition will always lead you into comfortable places or that things will always make sense, but it certainly seems hardier and sturdier and more beneficial than only listening to all of those, that mental noise, absolutely.

So you've mentioned that you have always kind of had this way of moving in the world that's very ease- ful and that that, you know, that concept of sort of letting go and letting in has really driven or not driven you, but guided you in your working life. Where do you feel like it's taking you now, or what are some of the edges that are coming up in your working life as you grow into, you know, more of this work?

And I'd love to just hear kind of what you see ahead for you.

Carolyn: That's a really good question because even writing this book, I'm a scientist and you present a certain way as a scientist. However, the entire time I've been alive that I can remember, I've also lived by this way of being that's not scientific.

It doesn't make logical sense. You can't barely even describe instinct. It's whatever. You can't describe it. So I first will say, To even talk about these concepts out loud to people like my mom or my brother, who I trust very much was very difficult three years ago when I was thinking of these and trying to write them down.

Because you're trained to think no one's gonna take you seriously as a scientist if you tell people that you're listening to this voice in your body, that what? This makes no sense, right? So coming out of hiding. That's been a huge theme for me in writing this book, coming out of Hiding, and that's another part of being authentic.

And I would encourage every single person listening to this, think of the ways you are hiding from yourself, from your family, from your spouse, from your children, from your parents. What are you hiding that's your most authentic self? And start with yourself. What are you hiding from yourself? And that's been my edge is coming out of hiding in everything I do, and it's been over the past three years I've been working on this. It just melts away, melts away, melts away, and coming out of, every time I come out of hiding a little bit more and I see that I'm still here, no one's throwing eggs at me or firing me, I'm like, okay, I can come out a little bit more. I can come out a little bit more. Until now, I'm, I'm talking to you.

I'm talking to people in public about this all over the place and it doesn't feel scary anymore. So I think for me, What scares me? What's bringing up fear? What am I hiding? And then going toward that with everything I have and trying to figure out and weed out what is causing the fear. What makes me think I have to hide?

Is it even true? No, it's not true. And then, okay, that can go, but sometimes it takes. Significant, sincere effort to maybe journal what is causing my fear. This is causing my fear. Okay. Let's get dig down even deeper and it's admitting to yourself. Where these fears are coming from, coming out of hiding to yourself that you even have these fears and that they could be driving you.

So I think that's always my edge is how can I weed out more fear? How can I face it and get to the bottom of it and leave it by the curb? Maybe it comes back, okay, well we better investigate again. I must have left a little tender of weed down there. I've gotta go down to the bottom and pick it up.

That's my always my edge is what is causing me fear. How can I go toward it and come outta hiding and, and be not governed by fear, because that's basically what creates the false voices in our heads, right, is fear, and we're evolutionarily wired to protect ourselves. So don't beat yourself up if you have that fear.

We're evolutionarily wired to, we have to protect ourselves and we just have to retrain ourselves that most fears are not true. We are no longer worried about lions eating us on the Serengeti. We are, no, we're no longer having to worry about a lot of these things. So it's going toward your fears and discovering which ones are true, which ones are not true, and how you can leave them.

And that's my edge. Always, always, always, always. And actually just even writing this book, like it doesn't even matter if no one ever reads it. I came out of hiding myself to write it. And that was hugely transformative for me, trusting my guidance even more.

Megan: Oh that's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

One of the things I love about what you said is that, you know, of course there are things we can do to kind of comfort or support ourselves when we are coming out of hiding, but like you said, the real medicine is just doing it and then seeing that you're still alive. You know, there's not really a way to learn that unless you try it and you do the thing that's scary and then you see like, I'm still here and I'm not getting fired, and I'm, you know, I'm, I can keep going.

It's like that phrase, " the only way out is through," you know, we just have to do the thing and keep working at it. So yeah, thank you.

Carolyn: And It does not mean it will be easy because in many cases it's not. We can talk about this and point to it, but when it really comes down to it, working through and toward your fear takes an enormous amount of bravery and kindness with yourself and willingness and sincerity. And so even if it means you're just looking around, maybe it's even just you see that there's a fear and then a few weeks later you can maybe touch the fear. I mean, it doesn't have to be overnight. This is like a long thing, right?

And like you said, beautifully said, we have our whole lives to be working on these things and getting more and more. And there's no right or wrong. There's no right path. You know, you might think, God, why didn't I know this three years ago? Well, it wasn't time for you to know it three years ago. It'll be time when it's time and just to be patient and kind and loving to yourself as you would with your kids.

I know you have children and you would never think of the things people's brains say to thems themselves that they would never say to their child or their best friend and treat yourself that way as you're going toward these, these fears. Hold your own hand, hug yourself as you go toward them.

Megan: Thank you. This has been so nice. Is there anything else you wanna leave people with, and can you also mention where people can find the book and how they can follow along?

Carolyn: Look on the guidance groove.com website for more information. My name is Carolyn Kurle and the last name is spelled k u r l e.

You can Google me, there's no other Carolyn Kurle's. I'm on LinkedIn, and I would like to just leave people with this idea that this book and, and many others like it are just invitations to pause and take a moment to find your own voice, every single being on the planet, the plants, the animals, the humans, we all have this amazing spark of light, and it is our job to guard it, to find it, to listen to it, to connect with the other sparks of light and the other living things around us.

And just notice, just notice that you have that spark of light within you recognize it, and then you can start to feel into it. And then you can start to listen for it, and then you can start to trust it and just start slow and just recognize you have it and know it, know it. You have this voice. You just have to find and listen to it, and give it as much weight as you give your beautiful logic, awesome brain that can solve calculus problems and, and do these amazing things.

Trust you have it and start listening for it. I promise it will bring you more contentment and ease and authenticity. It's just, it can't help but do that.

Megan: Thank you so much, Carolyn.

Carolyn: Thank you. I have to say - I love your show. I think the way you approach integrating nature and the cycles with how we are as humans and how we move through our work worlds is genius and it's makes so much sense to me.

I just wrote an editorial for a journal for which I'm a, I'm an editor. It's a British ecological Society journal, and the whole message was that we humans are just as much a part of nature as any other thing. And of course it's not a new idea. Indigenous cultures have thought this forever. And then this idea of what if you just looked at your fellow humans and realized they were just as majestic as like a Sequoia tree or a river or whatever you consider part of the natural world.

When I listen to episodes of your podcast, I'm like, this woman knows. She's integrating these cycles of nature and encouraging us all to recognize that we are nature, we are part of it, and we can relate back to that amazing information that's coming from ecological concepts and use it in our own lives.

So I just wanted to tell you that, that as an ecologist, I find that to be extraordinary and rare, and I love that you're putting that in the world. It's really, you're doing a great service, so thank you. It's awesome.

Megan: Thank you. Thank you so much. It's pretty profound to imagine seeing another person as something that I admire so much in nature. I should put that in mind when I'm arguing with my spouse about the dishes, like he is just as majestic as that redwood. So thank you and thank you for those words.

Okay, my friends. I hope that you loved that episode and I encourage you to check out Carolyn's book if you wanna go deeper with the concepts that we have covered here.

I'm wishing each of you a very happy mid-spring period. I hope that you enjoy it, a very happy mid-fall to our friends in the Southern Hemisphere. I'll be back with you next month. Take such good care and I'll see you on the other side.